Your question, “What do you expect the police officer to do,,” made perfect sense to me and made me pause to consider the scene more carefully. I'm sorry that so many people take offense so quickly. They lose out on the benefits of objective reasoning.
I had no idea that police are not well trained in putting out "small" fires. I think that is a very important, even necessary, skill for any first responder. I also think it would be wise for them to have fire blankets in their vehicles.
Consider the timeline and logistics to answer your question. If an officer is not in the car and not witnessing the incident unfold, they can't respond or intervene until they either are made aware by someone else or receive a call for service. Outside of the mythical supernatural "spontaneous combustion" scenario, the murderer must have intentionally doused the woman with some accelerant. Clothes don't burn like that. Once she has been ignited, the only real hope to save her is a fire extinguisher, and Subway cars are not equipped with any that are accessible to the public. Therefore, you have to hope that the right person is nearby. Police Officers in the Subway system are not in vehicles; thus, a fire blanket is not an option, nor is carrying one on their person, so they need to access them like any other subway personnel, which means they have to get to a pre-positioned one and then get to the victim, which, by all accounts so far is precisely what they did. The hard truth is that just because the police arrived does not mean they can impact the eventual outcome. They become witnesses like everyone else who was already there. The officers could have been trained firefighters, and their presence would not have changed the outcome. The police bear no responsibility for the result of this horrific murder; their job now is to ensure the illegal immigrant, who should not have been on that Subway in the first place, received a similar fate at the hands of the criminal justice system. What I would rather see in terms of energy placed in trying to understand this incident is to backtrack the trajectory of Sebastian Zapeta's presence in the United States. Everyone who assisted him on his journey to that point in time bears the responsibility for this murder, not the police.
There are times where all first responders literally do ‘rescue theatre’ for the people on site. The video is horrible. One of the worst I have ever seen. I’ve asked myself - what would I have thought to do in that situation? I’ve also got questions as to what would I have liked to have seen any officer do in that situation. Teaching CPR we preach scene safety. We also teach when not to do CPR - stiff, scorched, severed, smelly (decomp) - There is no making that scene safe. She could have been surrounded by sparking power lines or in a pit of venomous vipers and we would not expect the first responder to risk their life. Great job as always DC.
When we evaluate officers actions we need to look beyond just evaluating if they followed policy, law and training. We also need to determine if the officers followed their agency’s values. I suspect they did. They were trying to do just that. They followed the first, second and last value from the NYPD values listed below:
In partnership with the community, we pledge to:
Protect the lives and property of our fellow citizens and impartially enforce the law.
Fight crime, both by preventing it and aggressively pursuing violators of the law.
Maintain a higher standard of integrity than is generally expected of others because so much is expected of us.
Value human life, respect the dignity of each individual and render our services with courtesy and civility.
I think it is impossible to know exactly what was going on based on one cell phone video. No one moves in to help her. I believe I saw another video where even Fire did not immediately go in. If that is the case, there has to have been more at play here than we know. I do know that officers' uniforms are not flame retardant. There may have been no option for them or any bystander to do anything other than find a fire extinguisher. It is horrifying and tragic. I do hope we get more information and insight.
Early in my career, I spent over an hour scouring a neighborhood to find the source of something burning. It could have been a campfire or something, and I could have easily dismissed it as such and gone about my night. My persistence paid off when, around 3 am, I found the source. A house filled with smoke - flames visible inside. I was at the front of the house, and I called for assistance. Another officer was driving up the alley when I notified them of the address. After banging on the door and getting no response, I kicked in the front door, ready to save the day! The house was fully engulfed and the smoke was to the floor, I couldn't go in. When the fire department arrived, they did their thing. It turned out, thankfully, there was nobody home. When the scene was wrapping up, the officer in the back alley made a comment that one of the firemen overheard. He said, "Dude, when you kicked in the front door, it was like a fireworks show in the back! The flames went blowing out of the back of the house like twenty feet into the air!" I never saw that. The fireman said, "Hey, have you ever thought about what that polyester uniform would look and feel like melted to your skin?" He proceeded to explain to me the basics of a backdraft and how hot the air can get, let alone the flames. I don't remember the entire conversation, but I never forgot his point. Firefighters wear that turnout gear for a reason. It was not the last fire I responded to, and I pulled a few people and a cat out of burning houses after, but I was always a helluva a lot more thoughtful about it. My long point is this: until we know the whole story, it is easy to judge from the cool comfort of your couch. The sad truth is that even the fire extinguisher was not going to save that life, and the only thing the officer would have accomplished by jumping on her was probably getting himself killed or severely injured. There are a lot of people to blame for the long list of events that led to this tragic death, but the officer is not one of them. To do so is adding insult to moral injury. I feel for everyone on that subway who had to witness the worst of what humanity can do to another person, but I have no sympathy for the pathetic souls who judge from the sidelines.
Great insights from experience. Like you, I’ve been first on scene to residence and vehicle fires. Because of their training, I’ve never seen firefighters get off the truck while it is still rolling and storm in. Instead you will see them get the collar on the hydrant for one or two minutes while other trucks arrive. They go in when they have water pressure.
I appreciate your work and insights in attempting to educate the public from a perspective they are unfamiliar with: boots on the ground. I don't have a problem when people genuinely want to learn and understand, and the police should expect to be questioned about what they do and why. Still, I have to admit that even after all of these years, it is frustrating to see so many people who don't care about anything. They want to complain and find someone to blame, so I will join you in the effort to keep educating. One incident at a time!
I had seen the video before and wondered what was going on, thanks for the context by looking into it.
Sure it is easy to demonize the officer in the video, but without knowing what was happening outside the frame of the cell phone video it's generally not wise to jump to conclusions. There was a lot going on that the cell phone was not able to capture.
On another note, it would be rather difficult to smother that large a fire effectively on account of the lack of items in subways that are capable of cutting off the oxygen to such a large fire.
Some fabrics that are plastic or petroleum based, such as polyester or fleece, are very difficult to put out and sticks to everything it touches when on fire. These materials exist in many brands and types of winter clothing. If there's no extinguisher or water nearby these materials can spread the fire to other materials and flesh upon contact when they melt.
I'm no expert on these matters nor will I pretend to be, but I learned a lot when working on a small fire crew at a carbon fiber manufacturing facility. At that job you see a lot of different materials and surfaces burn very quickly when something goes wrong.
Are those criticizing the police officer the same ones who captured video instead of assisting?
Your question, “What do you expect the police officer to do,,” made perfect sense to me and made me pause to consider the scene more carefully. I'm sorry that so many people take offense so quickly. They lose out on the benefits of objective reasoning.
I had no idea that police are not well trained in putting out "small" fires. I think that is a very important, even necessary, skill for any first responder. I also think it would be wise for them to have fire blankets in their vehicles.
Cristi, I didn't know that either.
Consider the timeline and logistics to answer your question. If an officer is not in the car and not witnessing the incident unfold, they can't respond or intervene until they either are made aware by someone else or receive a call for service. Outside of the mythical supernatural "spontaneous combustion" scenario, the murderer must have intentionally doused the woman with some accelerant. Clothes don't burn like that. Once she has been ignited, the only real hope to save her is a fire extinguisher, and Subway cars are not equipped with any that are accessible to the public. Therefore, you have to hope that the right person is nearby. Police Officers in the Subway system are not in vehicles; thus, a fire blanket is not an option, nor is carrying one on their person, so they need to access them like any other subway personnel, which means they have to get to a pre-positioned one and then get to the victim, which, by all accounts so far is precisely what they did. The hard truth is that just because the police arrived does not mean they can impact the eventual outcome. They become witnesses like everyone else who was already there. The officers could have been trained firefighters, and their presence would not have changed the outcome. The police bear no responsibility for the result of this horrific murder; their job now is to ensure the illegal immigrant, who should not have been on that Subway in the first place, received a similar fate at the hands of the criminal justice system. What I would rather see in terms of energy placed in trying to understand this incident is to backtrack the trajectory of Sebastian Zapeta's presence in the United States. Everyone who assisted him on his journey to that point in time bears the responsibility for this murder, not the police.
And fire blankets are not an option in a subway system because of thievery. The same reason I would assume fire extinguishers are difficult to access.
There are times where all first responders literally do ‘rescue theatre’ for the people on site. The video is horrible. One of the worst I have ever seen. I’ve asked myself - what would I have thought to do in that situation? I’ve also got questions as to what would I have liked to have seen any officer do in that situation. Teaching CPR we preach scene safety. We also teach when not to do CPR - stiff, scorched, severed, smelly (decomp) - There is no making that scene safe. She could have been surrounded by sparking power lines or in a pit of venomous vipers and we would not expect the first responder to risk their life. Great job as always DC.
When we evaluate officers actions we need to look beyond just evaluating if they followed policy, law and training. We also need to determine if the officers followed their agency’s values. I suspect they did. They were trying to do just that. They followed the first, second and last value from the NYPD values listed below:
In partnership with the community, we pledge to:
Protect the lives and property of our fellow citizens and impartially enforce the law.
Fight crime, both by preventing it and aggressively pursuing violators of the law.
Maintain a higher standard of integrity than is generally expected of others because so much is expected of us.
Value human life, respect the dignity of each individual and render our services with courtesy and civility.
Excellent comment.
Thank you.
Thoughtful analysis, as usual.
This thoughtful, complete reappraisal saved your channel for me. Like the rest of your content, it’s balanced with appropriate context.
Thanks.
I think it is impossible to know exactly what was going on based on one cell phone video. No one moves in to help her. I believe I saw another video where even Fire did not immediately go in. If that is the case, there has to have been more at play here than we know. I do know that officers' uniforms are not flame retardant. There may have been no option for them or any bystander to do anything other than find a fire extinguisher. It is horrifying and tragic. I do hope we get more information and insight.
Early in my career, I spent over an hour scouring a neighborhood to find the source of something burning. It could have been a campfire or something, and I could have easily dismissed it as such and gone about my night. My persistence paid off when, around 3 am, I found the source. A house filled with smoke - flames visible inside. I was at the front of the house, and I called for assistance. Another officer was driving up the alley when I notified them of the address. After banging on the door and getting no response, I kicked in the front door, ready to save the day! The house was fully engulfed and the smoke was to the floor, I couldn't go in. When the fire department arrived, they did their thing. It turned out, thankfully, there was nobody home. When the scene was wrapping up, the officer in the back alley made a comment that one of the firemen overheard. He said, "Dude, when you kicked in the front door, it was like a fireworks show in the back! The flames went blowing out of the back of the house like twenty feet into the air!" I never saw that. The fireman said, "Hey, have you ever thought about what that polyester uniform would look and feel like melted to your skin?" He proceeded to explain to me the basics of a backdraft and how hot the air can get, let alone the flames. I don't remember the entire conversation, but I never forgot his point. Firefighters wear that turnout gear for a reason. It was not the last fire I responded to, and I pulled a few people and a cat out of burning houses after, but I was always a helluva a lot more thoughtful about it. My long point is this: until we know the whole story, it is easy to judge from the cool comfort of your couch. The sad truth is that even the fire extinguisher was not going to save that life, and the only thing the officer would have accomplished by jumping on her was probably getting himself killed or severely injured. There are a lot of people to blame for the long list of events that led to this tragic death, but the officer is not one of them. To do so is adding insult to moral injury. I feel for everyone on that subway who had to witness the worst of what humanity can do to another person, but I have no sympathy for the pathetic souls who judge from the sidelines.
Great insights from experience. Like you, I’ve been first on scene to residence and vehicle fires. Because of their training, I’ve never seen firefighters get off the truck while it is still rolling and storm in. Instead you will see them get the collar on the hydrant for one or two minutes while other trucks arrive. They go in when they have water pressure.
I appreciate your work and insights in attempting to educate the public from a perspective they are unfamiliar with: boots on the ground. I don't have a problem when people genuinely want to learn and understand, and the police should expect to be questioned about what they do and why. Still, I have to admit that even after all of these years, it is frustrating to see so many people who don't care about anything. They want to complain and find someone to blame, so I will join you in the effort to keep educating. One incident at a time!
Cell phone video link is giving me an error
I had seen the video before and wondered what was going on, thanks for the context by looking into it.
Sure it is easy to demonize the officer in the video, but without knowing what was happening outside the frame of the cell phone video it's generally not wise to jump to conclusions. There was a lot going on that the cell phone was not able to capture.
On another note, it would be rather difficult to smother that large a fire effectively on account of the lack of items in subways that are capable of cutting off the oxygen to such a large fire.
Some fabrics that are plastic or petroleum based, such as polyester or fleece, are very difficult to put out and sticks to everything it touches when on fire. These materials exist in many brands and types of winter clothing. If there's no extinguisher or water nearby these materials can spread the fire to other materials and flesh upon contact when they melt.
I'm no expert on these matters nor will I pretend to be, but I learned a lot when working on a small fire crew at a carbon fiber manufacturing facility. At that job you see a lot of different materials and surfaces burn very quickly when something goes wrong.